Winter 08-09, How Will It Rank Against Others?

[damianslaw]

I hope you mean recent winters.

From memory, nothing surpasses the winter of 62/63. In fact, most of the winters of the sixties were cold and snowy. 68/69 was another cold snowy one.. The seventies were mainly very mild apart from 78/79 (the coldest/snowiest since 62/63). The early-mid eighties were also very cold/snowy with 81/82 standing out. The late eighties and most of the nineties have been very mild with little or no snow apart from 95/96 and 98/99. The nougties continued this trend (mild snowless, and frost free winters) although we did have some snowfalls around Christmas 2000/2001 and Christmas 2001/2002. Those early noughties snow events were far better than anything we've experienced this winter.

Quite surprised to see mention of 98/99 apart from a bit of snow early dec 98 and more generally early feb 99 that particular winter generally mild and snow free, 90/91, 93/94 and 96/97 delivered much more snow and colder weather.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Peter Henderson is from Northern Ireland where 1998/99 had a fair few snow events. That winter had a very unusual distribution of snow cover across the Tyne & Wear area, with the season as a whole having 9 days of lying snow at coastal Cleadon but only 4 at inland Durham. In Cleadon, there were snow events on 4-6 December 1998, 9-12 January 1999, 8-10 February 1999 and 13-15 April 1999, though only 9 February 1999 exceeded an inch of lying snow. But even at Cleadon it was nowhere near 1993/94 or 1995/96.

The winter of 1998/99 was also fairly snowy by recent standards in the north and east of East Anglia, probably because of the same east-coast snow showers that affected Cleadon.

[Northernlights]

I hope you mean recent winters.

From memory, nothing surpasses the winter of 62/63. In fact, most of the winters of the sixties were cold and snowy. 68/69 was another cold snowy one.. The seventies were mainly very mild apart from 78/79 (the coldest/snowiest since 62/63). The early-mid eighties were also very cold/snowy with 81/82 standing out. The late eighties and most of the nineties have been very mild with little or no snow apart from 95/96 and 98/99. The nougties continued this trend (mild snowless, and frost free winters) although we did have some snowfalls around Christmas 2000/2001 and Christmas 2001/2002. Those early noughties snow events were far better than anything we've experienced this winter.

The 30 years I quoted takes us back to 1979 and I meant to say that after that year fresh growing grass was available to the sheep most Januaries and Februaries even after the cold December of 1981 and it is this lack of regrowth this year which meant we had to give them supplementary feed from mid January( as in the sixties) that makes it stand out although there is a hint of green now showing in the fields. Also the extent to which a lot of conifers have been stripped of their branches in the woods around us by the weight of wet snowfalls just at freezing point(dry powdery snow would have been shed as the branches bent) of up to 3 feet in early February shows up the severity of the weather we had.The following intense cold down to -15c and lower made the wood brittle and the weight of wet snow frozen on the trees lead to many broken branches.It is a scene of utter destruction in many woods around us with a lot of birch snapped in half and the roadsides littered with fallen limbs that have been pushed to the side. This means that there will be a reminder of this winter as you pass any woodland in this area for many years to come before nature hides the damage with new growth.

[johnholmes]

well only a couple of days to go then all of us with weather stations can show how it really did compare with previous winters for each of our areas, regardless of what values the CET may show. Best we use the winter index Mr D uses as this will give a fuller picture as it includes not just temperatures but air frosts, snow falling and lying.

Time then for ACTUAL comparisons rather than anecdotal evidence I think?

Edited February 26, 2009 by johnholmes

[Peter Henderson]

Peter Henderson is from Northern Ireland where 1998/99 had a fair few snow events

Yes, I remember it quite well as I was very ill at the time.

Another unusual winter was 72/73. Virtually all of it was very mild with southwesterlies predominating. At the end of January/ beginning of February 1973 we had a very cold plunge of air on Northwesterly winds and a lot of very heavy snow from Monday 29th January until Thursday 1st February. Friday saw the start of the thaw. Strangely, no-one else seems to remember this event

[johnholmes]

just as a taster; here is certainly the 'wintriest' winter, using Mr D's method, probably since 1995-96, certainly nothing since is anywhere near.

Unfortunately I have no data from Finningley closing September 1995 to me starting my own regular weather observations 1 January 1997.

Other than that it goes back to the winter of 1990-91.

other areas may show different though.

Edited February 26, 2009 by johnholmes

[SNOWPLOUGH]

Peter Henderson is from Northern Ireland where 1998/99 had a fair few snow events. That winter had a very unusual distribution of snow cover across the Tyne & Wear area, with the season as a whole having 9 days of lying snow at coastal Cleadon but only 4 at inland Durham. In Cleadon, there were snow events on 4-6 December 1998, 9-12 January 1999, 8-10 February 1999 and 13-15 April 1999, though only 9 February 1999 exceeded an inch of lying snow. But even at Cleadon it was nowhere near 1993/94 or 1995/96.

The winter of 1998/99 was also fairly snowy by recent standards in the north and east of East Anglia, probably because of the same east-coast snow showers that affected Cleadon.

yes,even in Dublin I remember in april 1999 one night it started snowing heavily at around 11pm and did not stop till about 3am.In total there was about 5 Inches lying on the ground,I built a snowman ,next morning all the snow was gone except for my 5 foot snowman in the garden,everybody was wondering where the heck it came from

SP

Edited February 27, 2009 by SNOWPLOUGH

[Weather-history]

Manchester Winter Index ranked from highest to lowest value

1962-63: 501

----------------

1978-79: 262

1985-86: 159

1981-82: 149

1976-77: 141

1984-85: 140

1995-96: 135

1990-91: 126

2008-09: 105

1986-87: 100

1977-78: 90

1980-81: 90

1982-83: 85

1983-84: 82

1993-94: 78

2000-01: 77

1996-97: 72

1979-80: 66

2005-06: 59

2001-02: 50

2003-04: 50

1998-99: 47

2004-05: 47

1994-95: 45

2002-03: 44

1992-93: 43

1999-00: 42

1975-76: 41

1991-92: 40

1987-88: 37

2007-08: 37

1973-74: 30

1974-75: 26

1989-90: 26

1997-98: 25

2006-07: 21

1988-89: 20

If we are going to use that silly soundbite "even larger teapot", a soundbite that has still no definition by the way, then contrary to Ian Brown's prediction of this being a "very even larger teapot", it has been the most "unmodern winter" since 1995-96.

[Nick L]

Manchester Winter Index ranked from highest to lowest value

1962-63: 501

----------------

1978-79: 262

1985-86: 159

1981-82: 149

1976-77: 141

1984-85: 140

1995-96: 135

1990-91: 126

2008-09: 105

1986-87: 100

1977-78: 90

1980-81: 90

1982-83: 85

1983-84: 82

1993-94: 78

2000-01: 77

1996-97: 72

1979-80: 66

2005-06: 59

2001-02: 50

2003-04: 50

1998-99: 47

2004-05: 47

1994-95: 45

2002-03: 44

1992-93: 43

1999-00: 42

1975-76: 41

1991-92: 40

1987-88: 37

2007-08: 37

1973-74: 30

1974-75: 26

1989-90: 26

1997-98: 25

2006-07: 21

1988-89: 20

If we are going to use that silly soundbite "modern winter", a soundbite that has still no definition by the way, then contrary to Ian Brown's prediction of this being a "very modern winter", it has been the most "unmodern winter" since 1995-96.

Interesting stats there Mr Data. I think this winter has been pretty good, and excellent compared to the past 10 years. If this is a modern winter then I will have another one next year please.

[johnholmes]

for Cantley, Doncaster

Winter 2008-2009

December was the coldest since 2003

January the coldest since 1997 and February the coldest since 2006.

The winter as a whole is the coldest since 2002-2003 and it’s the 6th ? 7th coldest since 1990-91.

The mean temperature showed 4.5C with the 1991-2000 average at 4.7C

Using the Mr D winter index gives a value of 67.3

I have not sufficient data for the winter of 1995-96 but it has higher values than previous other winters back to 1990-91 which had 127.1, the winter of 2003-04 gave 63.2.

The average number of days of snow falling/ lying for 1971-2000 for this area is 5/3, this year I recorded 10/11

For air/ground frost the average is 9/16 this year gave 31/50

[Snowyowl9]

I make this the snowiest winter since 1995/96 with 33 days with lying snow.

1996/97 had 22 days.

2005/06 with 18,not including March of course.

1995/96 gave 54 days.

Most air frosts since 1995/96 also I would`ve thought aswell had 38.

2005/06 with 29.

All in all a very decent winter indeed. and not too wet either with the last half of feb being very dry, but it was mild but it certainly made up for last summer to see it a dry winter and no continuous wet SW-lys

[Thundery wintry showers]

Yes, I remember it quite well as I was very ill at the time.

Another unusual winter was 72/73. Virtually all of it was very mild with southwesterlies predominating. At the end of January/ beginning of February 1973 we had a very cold plunge of air on Northwesterly winds and a lot of very heavy snow from Monday 29th January until Thursday 1st February. Friday saw the start of the thaw. Strangely, no-one else seems to remember this event

There was a half-hearted NW'ly at the end of January 1973, but I have a strong suspicion that your dates might be two weeks out:

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/19...00119730213.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/19...00119730214.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/19...00119730215.gif

[damianslaw]

For central and eastern Wales, midlands, home counties and west country this winter will go down as a notably memorable one best since 95/96, elsewhere less so especially northern half of the country, although first half of december was quite notable for us I feel.

[Northernlights]

Don"t keep detailed records but in the farm diary this last fortnight has been the longest frost free ( ground or air) since the begining of October 2008. The first ground frost here was on the 22nd of September followed by one on the 2nd October and then a gap till the 21st October and after that there were periods of frost on a weekly basis till the middle of February making it one of the frostiest autumns and winters in recent memory completely shutting down all grass growth from late autumn till about a week ago as the soil surface slowly warmed and growth recommenced. Grass might be in for shock if the models are correct about the temperatures for this Thursday morning and as we are heading down the A9 at 5.00 am to Glasgow again on Thursday this almost gurantees that they are with nice icy roads to drive on.

[Summer of 95]

So far (this thread IMO needs to wait until April for a final analysis, given the chance of snow until then):

Number of days with lying snow is greatest since 1996/7 (12 days), although only just beating 2000/1 and 2001/2 (7 days each). The 8 days in the winter quarter (2 in Jan and 6 in Feb) is the greatest since 1995/6, which beat it by a long way (18 days; Dec 7, Jan 6, Feb 5). 6 days in February is however the most in that month since 1994.

HOWEVER:

Maximum depth of 5cm is greatest only since 2006/7 (7cm), and since 1987 has been exceeded in no fewer than 9 winters, including besides 06/7 such mild ones as 1988/9 and 1994/5.

Maximum continuous duration of >50% cover was about 55 hours (early hours of 2nd Feb to lunchtime on 4th), again only the greatest since 2006/7.

Ratio of snow lying to falling (8/14; 0.571) is again low, although higher than in some recent years still reflects badly on the ability of snow to settle; compare 1995/6 (21/27; 0.78), 1996/7 (12/14; 0.86), 2001/2 (7/5; 1.4: the only winter in past 15 years with a ratio greather than 1).

What snow did lie still melted quickly as soon as the temp rose above freezing; even at 1C it was disappearing fast- this didn't often happen pre-1997.

We still haven't broken the "No lying snow in the middle third (11th-20th) of a winter month" duck that has stood since Feb 1994.

[tundra]

For winter 08-09 December through to end of February here in Hertfordshire:

DECEMBER: rather cold first 15 days and cold last 6 no snow, disappointing month.

JANUARY : cold first 10 days one light covering of snow early in month (5mm), some rather cold days through the rest of the month. Overall disappointing.

FEBRUARY: first 14 days were cold or rather cold the 2nd of Feb was a verycold day. Eight days of lying snow with maximum depth of approx 7 inches (expected much higher accumulations but two forcasted heavy falls of snow by the met office went pear shaped at the last minute.)

The last 16 days of February were very disappointing as very cold weather which was anticipated and forcast but never materialized.

Overall a much better winter than the last few but still no great shakes.

[johnholmes]

So far (this thread IMO needs to wait until April for a final analysis, given the chance of snow until then):

I would imagine those posting are taking the official view of winter being 1 Dec to end February, irrespective of what spring may give!

[MAF]

I would imagine those posting are taking the official view of winter being 1 Dec to end February, irrespective of what spring may give!

wonder if they would do so if it was heavy snow 30th november.

quite right John and S95, perhaps a bit of flexibilty is needed and not such a rush to end winter

[Coast]

Not sure if this is an appropriate thread to post this, please move if not:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london

London was ill-prepared for the heavy snowfall on 2 February, slowing the city's recovery, a report has found. There was a lack of communication and support between emergency services, local councils and Transport for London (TfL), the London Assembly (LA) said.

For example, London Ambulance Service said it asked local authorities for help clearing access routes to ambulance stations but some councils refused. A number of London boroughs said they received little or no communication from TfL and as a result attempts to grit or salt roads were uncoordinated or too late. Bus services were also hampered by a lack of clarity around who was responsible for clearing snow from bus garage driveways.

[tundra]

wonder if they would do so if it was heavy snow 30th november.

quite right John and S95, perhaps a bit of flexibilty is needed and not such a rush to end winter

I think posters including myself are just adherring to the title of the thread which says winter 08-09. In meteorological terms that is 1st of December to the end of February.

[DR Hosking]

dont have any historical stats at the momennt but certainly coldest and snowiest here since 95/96 maybe longer, weve had about 17 or 18 days of snow cover, with 14 continous days which we havent had for many years, not bad for central southern England

[Thundery wintry showers]

As the winter quarter has now ended I can confirm that in Cleadon this was the coldest and snowiest winter quarter since 1995/96. That's a fairly impressive statistic, but again, looking back over my own records it was not much snowier than 2003/04, 2000/01 or, surprisingly, 1998/99. Also, the winters of 1996/97 and 2000/01 were almost as cold. I think though as some others have mentioned, the North Sea coastal areas had much less persistence of snow cover due to the marginality of many of the events, so the stats would inevitably be less impressive than in many other parts of the country.

It does sound like it was the 1st or 2nd snowiest since the 1980s in some parts of the country, with the Manchester index being particularly illuminating- perhaps many of us (which admittedly includes myself) may have got too caught up in the lack of deep cold air to notice that while it wasn't outstandingly cold, for most it was cold enough. Look back over the archives for winter 1978/79, and while there were several notable occurrences of deep cold air, in fact most of that winter's snow events were marginal, just like this winter's have been, and arose from similar synoptics. This is illustrated by the fact that Lancaster had 21 days of lying snow in January 1979 but only 2 in February, and then 6 in March- because February's events were wrong side of marginal there, whereas in contrast in the North East January, February and March were comparably snowy.

[johnholmes]

yes Ian the almost constant clatter, from some, about marginal mostly struck me as useless comment to be honest.

I have no idea how many marginal snow events occurred in 1947, 1963 or any other year with snow but one can assume quite a number.

The winter index is a really good way of using all the aspects of wintry weather, snow falling, lying, days with air frost and using the mean max rather than the mean does give a more true aspect of what happens. Rather better, in my view, although others will disagree, than our own personal memory, be it short or long term.

Certainly for here, much as you comment, only just more snowy than other years but still it was more snowy which is the main point. 8 days of lying snow in Doncaster is not seen that often.

Edited March 2, 2009 by johnholmes

[Polar Continental]

Winter 2008 / 2009 here was on the whole colder than in recent years, with frequent cold spells which gave much frosts and snowfall, especially during early February. The Mean was 3.2c, being the coldest winter from local data since 1995 / 6, -0.9c below average.

Paul

[SP1986]

The winter has been much colder here in terms of prolongedness than other winters, as many of us have seen.

The amount of air frosts wasn't as numerous as other places, but made a point of recording the amount of air frosts I had this winter, and the number of ground frosts..

air frost: 10 days per rolling year (average is usually about 3-4)

ground frost: 32 days per rolling year (average is usually about 9-10 days)

Absolute minimum temperature: -5.7C in December

Absolute maximum temperature: +15.1C in January

So frost was much more prevalent.. There were times when it was the right conditions for snow however we received 1 day of lying snow, and 2 days of falling snow - about average for the winter in this location.

The lack of snow was caused in main by a lack of precipitation and my area finished around 700mm of rain for the year with 70% of that coming in summer, so meteorological winter was particularly dry here.

The lack of snow was also based on local marginality. Of the 6 recorded precipitation events that took place, 2 of them were snow (one settling, one not settling), 1 was sleety rain and 3 of those were rain.

All in all a below average winter without doubt with frosts above average in quantity but snow was average - below average in terms of frequency.