Spring 2012

[Alex95]

Comparing the climates of NW and NE England is like comparing the climate of the USA with that of China - there's a lot more variation within the regions than there is between them. The Wirral is probably closer to SE England in terms of rainfall, temperatures and sunshine than it is to the Lake District.

Another thing to consider is that the past few summers have seen a ridiculous number of NW/SE splits, resulting in a very disappointing run of summers here since 2006. I would say summers in Liverpool usually compare favourably to most of Yorkshire and the North East, excepting certain areas like Doncaster and the Vale of York.

Winterwise, it's a no-brainer - this place sucks. Ironic then that winters have been far better than summers in recent years.

It depends though - Cumbria is in the NW, but places east of the Lake District are slightly colder than NE England, and receive comparable numbers of snow days. There is probably more significant snow in NE England thanks to the North Sea, but Shap would almost certainly be snowier than Newcastle, or at least it seems to be to me.

Newcastle isn't as bad for storms as everyone makes out. The UK in general is bad, but we're not that far behind the rest of England in the NE, apart from the SE and Eastern England. The temperatures are low though as there are a lot of days which don't reach 20°C.

I need to move to Denver I think, that'll keep me on my toes

Edited March 9, 2012 by Alza 2

[AderynCoch]

Easternmost Cumbria geographically is part of NE England, lying east of the watershed between the Irish Sea and North Sea.

Shap is further inland and much higher than Newcastle. I'd expect inland, upland places on the other side of the watershed to be snowier still, such as Weardale.

Edited March 9, 2012 by AderynCoch

[Aaron]

"North west England is not as cold (exceptions such as frost hollows of course) or as snowy as north east England (including Yorkshire in this), is wetter and often cloudier and not as prone to extreme heat or thunderstorms ON AVERAGE I might add.. fog is more common here but the east coast is still as sunny as London and other South-eastern areas."

Does anyone else not find it somewhat unusual that in recent winter cold the west has seemingly been colder than the east? In December 2010 Crosby (NW coast) recorded a temperature of -17.6C while in early Feb this year Holbeach (East Coast) only managed -15.6C. Bear in mind the seas off coastal Lincolnshire/Norfolk are the coldest in the UK and the seas are colder in Feb than they are in December. Also, it seemed a waste of time to check the East Midlands or North East on the Met office latest observations website during cold spells when the NW and west Midlands stations were consistantly colder. Yorkshire was more hit and miss. I was actually glad for cold weather fans in the east when they got their share in early Feb. In theory the east should be colder in winter as it borders a colder sea and is closer to the continent, but in practice it doesn't always ring true.

The station in Crosby is situated on sand so cools down quicker - it probably isn't a good Representative even for Crosby itself.

And December 2010 was far colder then February 2012 - I think a coastal location achieving -16C during much less cold conditions then those of December 2010 is incredibly impressive - I don't think anyone expected it to fall so low.

Anyway, during December 2010, Topcliffe in Yorkshire fell to -19C, Church Fenton to -17C, and a frost hollow in North Yorkshire fell to -20C (rounded) - an amateur station but very accurate nonetheless. Oh, not forgetting Redescale Camp which fell to -18C I believe.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Aaron

[Alex95]

Easternmost Cumbria geographically is part of NE England, lying east of the watershed between the Irish Sea and North Sea.

Shap is further inland and much higher than Newcastle. I'd expect inland, upland places on the other side of the watershed to be snowier still, such as Weardale.

Penrith is NW England though, and that is closer to the NE than the NW in terms of climate, although Penrith and Eastern Cumbria in general is more likely to be affected by a summer heatwave than NE England. The record in Penrith is 31°C, compared to 33°C in Newcastle, but that was in August 1990 and that was obviously exceptional.

[March Blizzard]

I think that overall there is little difference between the NW and NE in terms of annual temperatures, the NE being slightly cooler over the course of the year. However, thanks to the Pennines the NW is significantly wetter, more cloudy and probably slightly windier too. If you like the NW is somewhat of a Wales/Scotland Hybrid, nicely bridging the differences between the climates of the two countries.

If you look at a map that shows temperatures by colour in the summer months you can often see the entire NW bathed in a shade of green all the way down to southern Cheshire, while on the other side of the pennines yellows and oranages stretch as far north as Durham. Very warm summer temperatures are very rare in much of Lancs and Cumbira.

[March Blizzard]

The station in Crosby is situated on sand so cools down quicker - it probably isn't a good Representative even for Crosby itself.

And December 2010 was far colder then February 2012 - I think a coastal location achieving -16C during much less cold conditions then those of December 2010 is incredibly impressive - I don't think anyone expected it to fall so low.

Anyway, during December 2010, Topcliffe in Yorkshire fell to -19C, Church Fenton to -17C, and a frost hollow in North Yorkshire fell to -20C (rounded) - an amateur station but very accurate nonetheless. Oh, not forgetting Redescale Camp which fell to -18C I believe.

Good points, Aaron. The Crosby reading was a huge anomaly, even in similarly cold spells to Dec 10 it didn't go anywhere near as cold. However, isn't the Holbeach reading also quite unusual? I would argue that Dec 2010 wasn't much colder than early Feb 2012. Dec 2010 ended up -0.8C on the CET, didn't it? If i recall the CET for Feb 2012 didn't go above freezing until the 13th/14th...

Shap, Woodford, Spadeadam, Pershore, Shawbury etc were equally and consistently as cold as the stations you mentioned in both Jan and Dec 2010.

[Aaron]

Yes, the Holbeach one is also unusual, I don't expect such stations to go so low so close to the coast, west or east.

But December 2010 on the whole had a CET of -0.7C, only early February had a sub-zero CET of around -1C, the CET for December 2010 would have been far colder if it weren't for the milder periods in the middle.

Anyway, I agree with you, the UK has the same climate - Oceanic.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Aaron

[March Blizzard]

Yes, the Holbeach one is also unusual, I don't expect such stations to go so low so close to the coast, west or east.

But December 2010 on the whole had a CET of -0.7C, only early February had a sub-zero CET of around -1C, the CET for December 2010 would have been far colder if it weren't for the milder periods in the middle.

Anyway, I agree with you, the UK has the same climate - Oceanic.

Agreed. Remember that the western stations would have skewed the figures for the early Feb Cet, the cold was very localised to the SE and east. In that regard i think the early Feb cold is somewhat underrated - it was every bit as cold in the east and south east in early Feb 2012 as it was nationwide in Dec 2010. I suppose what im getting at is each location was subject to similar levels of cold when they recorded their anomalous low temperatures. Maybe the lack of significant or sustained snowcover in Feb 2012 prevented the temperatures from falling lower overnight. Anyway, you would think an east coast location in a severe cold spell in Feb would be colder than a west coast location in a similarly cold spell in Decemeber. Just shows how remarkable that Crosby reading was. Such are the quirks of the British climate.

[AderynCoch]

Good points, Aaron. The Crosby reading was a huge anomaly, even in similarly cold spells to Dec 10 it didn't go anywhere near as cold.

Which is why I don't question the December 2010 readings myself, despite their exceptional nature - a weather station doesn't just become dodgy when it turns unusually cold. Liverpool AP recorded -11C during that cold spell, and it's very often a few degrees warmer than surrounding areas. The only lower temperature recorded there since at least 1973 was -13C on 12/13 December 1981. I just wonder what Crosby would have recorded during that famous winter (its records only go as far back as 1984).

Anyway, I think this thead has digressed rather slightly!

Edited March 9, 2012 by AderynCoch

[March Blizzard]

Anyway, I think this thead has digressed rather slightly!

Yes, perhaps we should stop talking about past winter cold spells in the spring 2012 thread...

Edited March 9, 2012 by March Blizzard

[damianslaw]

It depends though - Cumbria is in the NW, but places east of the Lake District are slightly colder than NE England, and receive comparable numbers of snow days. There is probably more significant snow in NE England thanks to the North Sea, but Shap would almost certainly be snowier than Newcastle, or at least it seems to be to me.

Newcastle isn't as bad for storms as everyone makes out. The UK in general is bad, but we're not that far behind the rest of England in the NE, apart from the SE and Eastern England. The temperatures are low though as there are a lot of days which don't reach 20°C.

I need to move to Denver I think, that'll keep me on my toes

Interesting discussion. Cumbria is a micro climate in itself unique to anywhere else in the country and different to the rest of NW region including nearby N Lancashire. The local topography and proximity to the Irish Sea and shelter from the N Sea thanks to the Pennines are the three key factors that have a major impact on conditions in the county.

The coastal fringe is notably sunnier than the rest of the county particularly much of inland Lake District and is also notably milder during the winter and spring months recieving very limited snowfall and few air frosts. However, you only have to travel around 10 miles inland and conditions become much colder in late autumn through to mid spring with snowfalls much more frequent with much more air frost and cloudier conditions generally. The further east and north east you travel through the county the colder and snowier it becomes - the eastern lakes around Haweswater/Shap Fell generally sees the longest number of days with snow cover thanks to elevation, but doesn't quite beat the high ground of the N Pennines.

The Eden Valley is prone to long lasting freezing fog which can penetrate all the way up to Carlisle and the Solway Firth producing notably very cold minima and maxima. In Dec 2010 much of the Eden Valley on the 8th Dec struggle to see maxima above -5 degrees, with Carlisle Airport recording the lowest maxima a freezing -7 degrees.

In terms of rainfall, the western and central parts of the Lake District are the wettest part of the county, Ambleside is the wettest town in England, Windermere is the second wettest. However, the coastal region of the county is much less wet especially Solway Firth and Morecambe Bay region and eastern Cumbria - east of Penrith is much drier.

In terms of temps by late spring, the warmest conditions in the county are normally reserved for eastern parts extending up to Carlisle- these parts of the county normally see much less cloud than central and western parts especially under westerly/southwesterly airstreams which are notorious for producing low cloud drizzly muck to the western and central lakes.

Overall though I would say coastal parts of Cumbria see weather very similiar to Lancashire Coast. Inland Lake District is a climate all of its own. Carlisle, Eden Valley and Eastern Cumbria in general shares a slightly more moderate climate to eastern Pennines in terms of temps in the winter but similiar in summer, but slightly wetter in the winter.

It is certainly one if not the most interesting part of the country weatherwise in terms of the day to day differences that can occur and more particularly differences in such short distances. I've known there to be heavy rain in one valley and bright sunshine in the next just a couple of miles away, in this respect the Lake District shares weather characteristics much more akin to the SW Highlands than anywhere in England.

I've just realised which thread this particular topic has appeared in and I'm surprised we've got away with talking about regional weather differences in a thread titled 'Spring 2012'. Sorry mods - its rare I go off topic, but this was one post I couldn't resist making given the number of posts above describing Cumbrian Weather - its a topic I could quite happily talk about all the time - feel free to move such posts to the regional threads in the future - I won't mind..

Edited March 10, 2012 by damianslaw

[Eugene]

I'm liking ECM 00Z and GFS 06Z in bringing some cold 850's next weekend before HP builds over the UK and just to our east, much better high than the cloudy one we have now.

[SP1986]

Pretty dry in Wirral:

www.wirralcam.com

[Milhouse]

I'm liking ECM 00Z and GFS 06Z in bringing some cold 850's next weekend before HP builds over the UK and just to our east, much better high than the cloudy one we have now.

But its not cloudy everywhere. I initially thought it would be cloudy today but there has infact been lots of sunshine.

[Milhouse]

And to proove it

[I remember Atlantic 252]

my area prone to cheshire Gap, very cloudy even the odd spot of drizzle, NW winds, always miserable for cheshire gap area

[summer blizzard]

I'm liking ECM 00Z and GFS 06Z in bringing some cold 850's next weekend before HP builds over the UK and just to our east, much better high than the cloudy one we have now.

Where are these clouds you speak of? I am sat in Leeds looking at a blue sky with temperature of 13C.

As i said, east of the pennines and this week should be fantastic.

[Derp Patrol]

No cloud here either. Glorious afternoon and feels warm too, got my windows open for a change!

[damianslaw]

Its a surprisingly bright day here - awoke to some early sunshine and with fair weather cloud and patchy blue sky it has turned into a much better than originally forecast- not the slightest hint of any drizzle in the air. Quite surprised given we have a light feed of air off the Irish Sea which normally means low stubborn banks of cloud.

Tomorrow hopefully should see a repeat. All in all this could turn out to be a very decent weekend for the time of year - perfect weather for getting out and about.

[Aaron]

Yup. I have to get my garden sorted for the summer.

[Thundery wintry showers]

But its not cloudy everywhere. I initially thought it would be cloudy today but there has infact been lots of sunshine.

Indeed, here in Cleadon it has been a lot sunnier than expected- there has been a veil of high cloud and it is now clouding over generally but until about an hour ago there was plenty of milky sunshine.

Conditions across the country should gradually become sunnier over the next few days as we lose the import of moisture from the Atlantic and the sun gradually burns off the cloud cover. Tomorrow will probably still have a fair number of cloud patches floating about but by Tuesday I think a large majority of the country will be sunny.

[Summer Sun]

I'm liking ECM 00Z and GFS 06Z in bringing some cold 850's next weekend before HP builds over the UK and just to our east, much better high than the cloudy one we have now.

Don't know where this cloud is you are talking of, becuase this high is a sunny one for many today.

[summer blizzard]

Its a surprisingly bright day here - awoke to some early sunshine and with fair weather cloud and patchy blue sky it has turned into a much better than originally forecast- not the slightest hint of any drizzle in the air. Quite surprised given we have a light feed of air off the Irish Sea which normally means low stubborn banks of cloud.

Tomorrow hopefully should see a repeat. All in all this could turn out to be a very decent weekend for the time of year - perfect weather for getting out and about.

I think that because wind speeds are slowing it is allowing cloud to break up quite far west so that the Pennines are just cutting it to shreds.

[Eugene]

a very common set up for late March when northerlies reach their yearly maxim

Very interesting info damian, i didnt know that, i think northerlies are quite common in April too.

[Eugene]

GFS 12Z - No sign of an end to the high pressure domination, remaining very mild with little rainfall.

Just thought i would steal some of gavin d's thunder, not entirely true what i said but sounds good to gavin