The Electric Car - saving the climate or just polluting in other ways?

[Hairy Celt]

https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/how-clean-are-electric-cars/

[*Stormforce~beka*]

Oooh this is an interesting thread. I'm enjoying reading this!!

[Thundery wintry showers]

My understanding is that electric vehicles are considerably less polluting than traditional internal combustion engines, but that they're not yet close to producing net zero emissions (considering the cost of building the vehicle as well as producing the electricity).  The "3x less CO2 emitted" figure in Hairy Celt's link is similar to the figures that I've seen elsewhere.

In the long run EVs have considerable potential to be part of the solution, but in order to achieve net zero emissions and use energy sustainably we will have to cut down on our overall use of cars.  While I don't think the future of transportation has to be as grim as SnowBear suggested, we could end up in that kind of position if we mismanage things enough.  As well as the usual suggestion of leaning more upon walking, cycling and public transport, I see plenty of scope for us to shift away from relying on cars for private transport and using smaller EVs more often, e.g. e-bikes, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds.  These typically consume less fuel and also take up less road space (particularly useful in densely populated urban areas) and would still provide many of the freedoms that are traditionally associated with cars.  I can certainly see long distance journeys becoming fewer and further between and more public transport centric though.

But there's a serious "joker in the pack" here in the form of automation.  I'm increasingly hearing about a strong push to automate away driving, and I see plenty of scope for this to be extended to all forms of transportation other than walking and maybe cycling on safety and efficiency grounds.  I've had people tell me that this should be great for me because with my visual impairment it could make me more mobile, but I have various concerns about it.  I see Nineteen Eighty-Four type elements to it, I have issues with removing the human element of driving and riding, and I also fear possible scenarios where self-driving cars increase car dependency and cyclists and pedestrians become the main human source of risk on our roads and become viewed as menaces who thwart the otherwise safe AI-powered vehicles.

All in all, I see plenty of opportunities towards moving towards a sustainable transport system, with EVs as part of the solution but not the solution, which will give many of us at least as good a quality of life as we have now, but the pessimist in me also sees plenty of scope for things to go downhill and suspects that we'll probably screw things up.

[ANYWEATHER]

Electric cars are not the future. The waste they produce is far more than they solve. It's a money spinning racket for the greedy industries who pease  General Jo Blogs who doesn't care what vehicle they get around in as long as it's wheels are round......

[snow mad]

I like this idea. I’m sure it has its drawbacks but it seems like a good solution. I can’t see the human race wanting to be restricted to short journeys what with all the hobbies etc that people have me included. It would be a boring life if we all had to stay within a 20mins radius of where we were born. It will become the new class divide if we go down that root. We all know the rich and famous will continue doing as they please whilst telling us what we should be doing.

Paddy Lowe on his sustainable fuel mission: 'The world is decades behind' - Motor Sport Magazine

WWW.MOTORSPORTMAGAZINE.COM

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F1 is set to use sustainable fuel by 2026 – but, thanks to former Mercedes tech chief Paddy Lowe's Zero Petroleum, it's already being used elsewhere

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by snow mad

[Hairy Celt]

43 minutes ago, snow mad said:

I like this idea. I’m sure it has its drawbacks but it seems like a good solution. I can’t see the human race wanting to be restricted to short journeys what with all the hobbies etc that people have me included. It would be a boring life if we all had to stay within a 20mins radius of where we were born. It will become the new class divide if we go down that root. We all know the rich and famous will continue doing as they please whilst telling us what we should be doing.

Paddy Lowe on his sustainable fuel mission: 'The world is decades behind' - Motor Sport Magazine

WWW.MOTORSPORTMAGAZINE.COM

---

F1 is set to use sustainable fuel by 2026 – but, thanks to former Mercedes tech chief Paddy Lowe's Zero Petroleum, it's already being used elsewhere

 

Quote

“We’re approaching many industries actually,” he says. “These fuels will probably be needed in least of all in a regular road car, which is why we support electrification of regular road cars – we’re not the total salvation of petrolheads."

That's from Paddy Lowe, about two thirds the way down the article.

I've driven my share of miles using diesel and petrol-engined cars and bikes over the last 40 but I think we really need to wean ourselves off having such resource-hungry machines. There's no single solution to this but a change in people's mindsets is part of it. For example, if I want to shop at a cheap supermarket, it's a 25 minute drive each way, or a 25 minute bus ride plus 10 minute walks at each end. I got my pensioner's bus pass a while back but I still have to remind myself which way to go.  

[Methuselah]

11 hours ago, Thundery wintry showers said:

My understanding is that electric vehicles are considerably less polluting than traditional internal combustion engines, but that they're not yet close to producing net zero emissions (considering the cost of building the vehicle as well as producing the electricity).  The "3x less CO2 emitted" figure in Hairy Celt's link is similar to the figures that I've seen elsewhere.

A problem that will be solved once all the energy used in their construction is either nuclear or renewable in nature? 

[ANYWEATHER]

36 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

A problem that will be solved once all the energy used in their construction is either nuclear or renewable in nature? 

Is Nuclear clean green energy? Is so called renewable energy green? The questions go on......

[Hairy Celt]

2 minutes ago, ANYWEATHER said:

Is Nuclear clean green energy? Is so called renewable energy green? The questions go on......

Here's another one...What planet do you live on?

[Bristawl Si]

On 26/02/2023 at 10:59, jonboy said:

My information tells me the likes of Mercedes will phase out all non electric vehicles in the UK well before 2030 so if yo want something different you will have to buy outside the uk

From early March-

The EU’s largest economy is becoming the bloc’s biggest troublemaker.

In an effort to protect its leading industry from the wrenching change of scrapping combustion-engine cars, Germany is blocking final approval of the European Union’s legislation to ban the sale of new CO2-emitting cars from 2035.

[Bristawl Si]

3 hours ago, ANYWEATHER said:

Electric cars are not the future. The waste they produce is far more than they solve. It's a money spinning racket for the greedy industries who pease  General Jo Blogs who doesn't care what vehicle they get around in as long as it's wheels are round......

The main issue is that the drive to 'green' (excuse the pun) pushes costs up quite extensively.

Millions of peeps cant afford new electric cars. Add in the issues of charging facilities and 2030 in the UK will NOT happen.

As someone said earlier in the thread many will wait til 2029, buy a new petrol car and make do for 10 years. That's our plan, if any HMG pursues '2030'.

[ANYWEATHER]

52 minutes ago, Hairy Celt said:

Here's another one...What planet do you live on?

Unfortunately the one you're on

[MP-R]

EVs aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. I’ve now counted 4 people I know who are moving back to fossil fuel or hybrid cars at best given the problems associated with their EVs.

[Methuselah]

2 minutes ago, MP-R said:

EVs aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. I’ve now counted 4 people I know who are moving back to fossil fuel or hybrid cars at best given the problems associated with their EVs.

Another con by unscrupulous hi-tech geniuses and money-grabbers. Like world-beating apps...  Rushing things into mass production before the technologies have been properly tried and tested, is always likely to fail...

[Thundery wintry showers]

I know of quite a few people who have tried electric cars and have had relatively few problems with their vehicles, though they often report teething problems with lack of infrastructure, lack of charging points, and relatively limited range (though the range of EVs is increasing).  I also agree that the pollution ratio relative to traditional internal combustion engines has scope to improve considerably from the current "3 to 1" as we shift more and more of our electricity generation towards renewables. 

The environmental costs of building new electric vehicles will remain an issue (though there is again scope to reduce that by shifting more towards renewable energy sources and recycling parts for the construction), which suggests (as has been mentioned in a couple of articles above) that we also need to seriously look into ways of electrifying current petrol driven vehicles, to reduce the extent to which we have to mass produce new ones.

I have more than a suspicion that the Government's plan to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030 is an attempt to try and incentivise pushing EV technologies forward ("necessity is the mother of invention", as they say).  I won't be surprised if when it comes to the time they end up pushing the measure back another 5-10 years, but on general grounds I support the measure as a way of giving the automotive industry a "kick up the backside" to stimulate faster progress.

[Hairy Celt]

32 minutes ago, ANYWEATHER said:

Unfortunately the one you're on

Lol. Quite.

[Hairy Celt]

1 hour ago, ANYWEATHER said:

Is Nuclear clean green energy? Is so called renewable energy green? The questions go on......

Nuclear isn't clean by any stretch is it? How much CO2 is produced during the construction and operation of a nuclear power plant? But the point is that they're not as polluting as coal and gas, so maybe part of the mix.  Although proponents of renewables like solar, wind, hydro and tidal will say that with more storage, these sources will be enough as long as enough projects are built. 

But there'll always be folk who seem determined not to change.  I was... now I've got a grandchild.

[MP-R]

3 hours ago, Methuselah said:

Another con by unscrupulous hi-tech geniuses and money-grabbers. Like world-beating apps...  Rushing things into mass production before the technologies have been properly tried and tested, is always likely to fail...

Pretty much! One thing after another these days. 

[acorb]

Well I drive one (which from reading the thread so far nobody else does!), so let me provide some facts from 2 years & 35000 miles. 

-Affordability. Yes they are expensive to buy, but most people use finance or lease. Mine is on a business lease and it was more affordable than hybrid or petrol. Given I charge mine at home I have saved a fortune on fuel in those 2 years. 

-Practicality. I live in the middle of rural Wales. I use my car every day, but virtually all my journeys are under 150 miles, so I don't really need to use the public charging network. However, in the last 2 years nearly every town near me has acquired a charge point. Many are now used frequently. 

-Useabilty. Once you have driven one, you will be amazed with the performance. Instant power. Far from new untried technology, my car has been fault free, reliable and a pleasure to drive. Several of my colleagues have now ordered EVs. 

-Green? They are emission free, but only as green as the electric that goes in. New battery technology uses far less rare metals than ev batteries 10 years ago and are now recyclable - but they aren't perfect. But lithium batteries are in all sorts of portable electronics including mobile phones, do we boycott them? 

-Power supply - I hear this a lot. EVs can already be programmed to charge off peak, that's when I charge mine. New technology means EVs can be used as portable storage, storing electricity at times of plenty and are capable of providing power, to remove the grid's peaks and troughs. Let's get solar onto roofs and pair them with EVs where possible, your EV could power your house for free potentially and actually reduce grid dependance. 

-Are EVs the future? For me yes, it works and I'm impressed with the technology. It is still developing, new EVs go further and charge quicker than just 2 years ago. But I agree with the poster above, we still need to  better develop public transport - nothing is greener than an electrically powered train for long distances or cycling / walking for short distances. 

[Bradowl]

I've no plans to buy an electric car, I can't afford one for starters. 

Plus I keep reading bad reviews about them letting people down when weather is cold because battery drains rapidly leaving people stuck on long journeys and when they pull in at service stations to charge there's either a long queue or charging points aren't even working. 

In Sheffield city centre charging points charges have been doubled in price. 

This after now charging non electric vehicles that aren't privately owned, I guess charging everyone is around corner. 

[Gowon]

It's the tyres that are the problem and EVs are making it worse:

Tyre Pollution Nearly 2,000 Times Worse than Car Exhaust Emissions: Study | Earth.Org

EARTH.ORG

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Heavier battery cars are causing greater wear and more tyre particle pollution than from car exhausts, suggesting the urgent need for stronger regulation.

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Gowon

[Gowon]

On 21/03/2023 at 12:46, Hairy Celt said:

Nuclear isn't clean by any stretch is it? How much CO2 is produced during the construction and operation of a nuclear power plant? But the point is that they're not as polluting as coal and gas, so maybe part of the mix.  Although proponents of renewables like solar, wind, hydro and tidal will say that with more storage, these sources will be enough as long as enough projects are built. 

But there'll always be folk who seem determined not to change.  I was... now I've got a grandchild.

Yep, I'd love it if all cars were banned.

I think there should only be public transport, delivery vehicles and emergency vehicles.

[Kiwi]

1 minute ago, Gowon said:

Yep, I'd love it if all cars were banned.

I think there should only be public transport, delivery vehicles and emergency vehicles.

How does that work for the 20% of UK population living in rural areas? Public transport is non existent.

[Gowon]

Just now, Kiwi said:

How does that work for the 20% of UK population living in rural areas? Public transport is non existent.

They can make public transport available for those people?

[Gowon]

I forgot to include the people that need vehicles for their jobs, so we can include them in the list that are allowed to stay.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Gowon