The Electric Car - saving the climate or just polluting in other ways?

[Scuba steve]

18 minutes ago, Polar Maritime said:

Dread to think what it would cost to power a battery powered tractor during harvesting times.

I understand there could be a turn over point re-electric costs. But that seems to be futuristic atm.. it's bad enough what with diesel costs the past few years.

A very interesting discussion this

Agreed but I was impressed by the 1.8 ton electric jcb excavator which would run 8 hours on a charge and almost silent apart from ram pumps working 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Scuba steve

[acorb]

22 minutes ago, markyo said:

Your post has one major flaw in it, a very big one actually. A lot of it i agree with, to drive a EV is great, response, reliability, etc, EV's the future, yes but as a overall solution. The huge flaw is as it stands charging. You have off street charging at home? Yes you have. The majority in this country do not, fact.  That is not going to change. Charging a battery via a cable is NOT the future. Can you imagine the size on the cable required to feed a normal suburban  semi detached house street of say 200 homes? Each coming home at night to charge? No that will never never happen. EV's as they are have their place but the future is certainly not one as it is now with charge cables at home for the lucky ones who can. As you say your journeys are never more than 75 mile radius from your home without charging. Would i want to pay 25k plus for a car that could only do that? No. They are still a niche product suited to a few.

Super fast charging is already available in many countries abroad where charging your car takes 10 to 15 minutes at an EV charging station, not that different to a fuel station. As usual the UK is a slow adopter and makes these things very expensive where they do exist. 

I also agree I'm lucky I have a drive. On street charging technology is often not available, but destination charging is often an option with many workplaces now offering ev charging.

Unfortunately, the cost of charging on the network has risen significantly due to rising energy costs in the last couple of years. Competition needs to drive this down fast and the government could also take action by reducing tax on ev charging, just as they have frozen fuel duty for many years. The charging network also needs to be simplified, but many are now contactless. 

EV manufacturers also need to focus on making their cars more efficient, the obsession with electrifying SUVs means these wedge shaped cars are horribly inefficient. 

It isn't perfect, but the technology exists to solve many of these issues and it is happening. Obstacles are often sadly political. 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by acorb

[Gowon]

20 minutes ago, markyo said:

Your post has one major flaw in it, a very big one actually. A lot of it i agree with, to drive a EV is great, response, reliability, etc, EV's the future, yes but as a overall solution. The huge flaw is as it stands charging. You have off street charging at home? Yes you have. The majority in this country do not, fact.  That is not going to change. Charging a battery via a cable is NOT the future. Can you imagine the size on the cable required to feed a normal suburban  semi detached house street of say 200 homes? Each coming home at night to charge? No that will never never happen. EV's as they are have their place but the future is certainly not one as it is now with charge cables at home for the lucky ones who can. As you say your journeys are never more than 75 mile radius from your home without charging. Would i want to pay 25k plus for a car that could only do that? No. They are still a niche product suited to a few.

Can't we have electric  stations like a petrol stations?

[Scuba steve]

Just now, Gowon said:

Can't we have electric  stations like a petrol stations?

We could but the tax payer shouldn’t pay for them they don’t pay for petrol stations 

[Gowon]

4 minutes ago, acorb said:

Super fast charging is already available in many countries abroad where charging your car takes 10 to 15 minutes at an EV charging station, not that different to a fuel station. As usual the UK is a slow adopter and makes these things very expensive where they do exist. 

I also agree I'm lucky I have a drive. On street charging technology is often not available, but destination charging is often an option with many workplaces now offering ev charging.

Unfortunately, the cost of charging on the network has risen significantly due to rising energy costs in the last couple of years. Competition needs to drive this down fast and the government could also take action by reducing tax on ev charging, just as they have frozen fuel duty for many years. The charging network also needs to be simplified, but many are now contactless. 

EV manufacturers also need to focus on making their cars more efficient, the obsession with electrifying SUVs means these wedge shaped cars are horribly inefficient. 

It isn't perfect, but the technology exists to solve many of these issues and it is happening. 

 

I definitely agree with that.

[acorb]

1 minute ago, Gowon said:

Can't we have electric  stations like a petrol stations?

Yes, these are already popping up in places like Sweden. They can also have their own micro generation via a renewables source so they can separate from the grid. 

[Polar Maritime]

18 minutes ago, Scuba steve said:

Agreed but I was impressed by the 1.8 ton electric jcb excavator which would run 8 hours on a charge and almost silent apart from ram pumps working 

Not seen that, will look it up

[markyo]

10 hours ago, Gowon said:

Can't we have electric  stations like a petrol stations?

You can but the footprint would be massive, each station would have to be approx 3 times the size of normal petrol station to be viable due to the time required for each car at each point. More facilities would also be needed, not just a shop and a coffee machine! But the biggest issue would be the electrical sub station that each station would need, the load on the local grid would be huge and destabilize the grid without a substation, the costings simply do not work let alone the space issue.

As for Sweden, totally different situation there, their population density per square KM is less than a tenth that of the UK, their motorway network is a fraction of ours and they have a functioning rail network so traffic levels are vastly lower. When we have Trans Pennie operator cancelling over 15,000 services last 12 months, we rely on our cars far more, electric charging stations  would never never work both practically and fiscally.

Edited March 24, 2023 by markyo

[cheeky_monkey]

as someone pointed out earlier car battery tech is no there yet to deal with cold climates..when it was really cold here in Dec there were lots of EV vehicles just dying on the highway due to the cold draining the battery from 100% to )0% over a space of a few miles..same thing always happens with phone batteries here if you are outside to long they go from full charge to no charge in matter of minutes

[The PIT]

If someonf falls over a charger cable across the pavement who is legally responsible? The car owner council for not provding street charging? Mobility scooters won't be able to use the pavements and if they do and damage the cable are they responsible for the repairs.

[Mapantz]

20 hours ago, Scuba steve said:

Agreed but I was impressed by the 1.8 ton electric jcb excavator which would run 8 hours on a charge and almost silent apart from ram pumps working 

I've sat in a Volvo EC230 - 23 ton machine that is fully electric. An absolute work of art!

They've also introduced a dump truck that runs on hydrogen and electric.

[ANYWEATHER]

4 hours ago, cheeky_monkey said:

as someone pointed out earlier car battery tech is no there yet to deal with cold climates..when it was really cold here in Dec there were lots of EV vehicles just dying on the highway due to the cold draining the battery from 100% to )0% over a space of a few miles..same thing always happens with phone batteries here if you are outside to long they go from full charge to no charge in matter of minutes

It's a big hurdle for battery techs to develop. Batteries do not like cold, and extreme cold places like Canada in Winter, makes EVS completely useless

[skifreak]

On 24/03/2023 at 13:25, cheeky_monkey said:

as someone pointed out earlier car battery tech is no there yet to deal with cold climates..when it was really cold here in Dec there were lots of EV vehicles just dying on the highway due to the cold draining the battery from 100% to )0% over a space of a few miles..same thing always happens with phone batteries here if you are outside to long they go from full charge to no charge in matter of minutes

Norway seems to manage just fine.

[quote]Electric cars themselves are not that efficient at the moment due to production cost (takes about 30 years of using green produced electric for them to become "green"), while we are using mixed energy sources they are in many ways just as bad as an ICE car. [/quote]
 

This is just nonsense. Even if we were producing 100% of the electricity from fossil fuels, large scale combined cycle thermal power stations are significantly more efficient than individual ice engines. 

It’s why hydrogen ICE is not going to be the way cars go. 

[markyo]

19 minutes ago, skifreak said:

It’s why hydrogen ICE is not going to be the way cars go. 

That is just plain wrong, sorry this what i keep referring to as the EV elitism that is spreading it is mindboggling attitude to EV's are the only option. Yes we need them but a blanket all fits all attitude is ridiculous, they are part of a overall solution.  As for the benefit with existing top end EV's tech the cut off point of a difference as it stands is approx 60000 miles use before the EV becomes more environmentally friendly. As these cars are used for short journeys in the main that will not change rapidly until the tech does.

Not one car suits every task, we need a more realistic approach. As i said previous can you imagine if on returning home every night from work in their Ev's even 25% put them on to charge at home( if they can) the impact that would have on the grid? It is not going to work. The cost of Hydrogen production is dropping massively by the way, you may get a big surprise soon.

Edited March 26, 2023 by markyo

[Methuselah]

1 minute ago, markyo said:

That is just plain wrong, sorry this what i keep referring to as the EV elitism that is spreading it is mindboggling attitude to EV's are the only option. Yes we need them but a blanket all fits all attitude is ridiculous, they are part of a overall solution.  As for the benefit with existing top end EV's tech the cut off point of a difference as it stands is approx 60000 miles use before the EV becomes more environmentally friendly. As these cars are used for short journeys in the main that will not change rapidly until the tech does.

Not one car suits every task, we need a more realistic approach. As i said previous can you imagine if on returning home every night from work in their Ev's even 25% put them on to charge at home( if they can) the impact that would have on the grid? It is not going to work.

Well then, the infrastructure will have to be provided, won't it? In the meantime (at least as far as inner cities are concerned) it's the elimination of ozone and airborne particulates that should be the main concern. 

[Bristawl Si]

EVs are way too expensive, for vast maj of peeps. Household incomes of, say, £100k plus can poss afford; peeps who have a business lease opportunity then prob also affordable, but as these acccount for around only c4% of car 'ownership', it's easy to see why EVs are way out of reach for most.

Add in issue of charging, even at home, we are way off, as a society, being able to accomodate.

Up our street 2 houses 'share' part of electric supply and if one house hasnt got the main feed, the 'other' neighbour has to give permission for their garden to be dug up to ensure the other household has an efficient supply. This happened to a neighbour opposite us. She has a new electric mini, but the electricity supply to her house was 'compromised' in some way, so her neighbour had his garden dug up to sort out her supply. Luckily he gave her permission, but he didnt have to.

Would we get an EV? Yes, if distance improves on one charge; yes, if battery efficiency improves in very cold weather, but, most importantly, yes if costs fall rapidly. 

HMG could offer big subsidies, but that would be a massive cost to the taxpayer. Should non-drivers be expected to subsidise?

[Methuselah]

1 minute ago, Bristle Si said:

EVs are way too expensive, for vast maj of peeps. Household incomes of, say, £100k plus can poss afford; peeps who have a business lease opportunity then prob also affordable, but as these acccount for around only c4% of car 'ownership', it's easy to see why EVs are way out of reach for most.

Add in issue of charging, even at home, we are way off, as a society, being able to accomodate.

Up our street 2 houses 'share' part of electric supply and if one house hasnt got the main feed, the 'other' neighbour has to give permission for their garden to be dug up to ensure the other household has an efficient supply. This happened to a neighbour opposite us. She has a new electric mini, but the electricity supply to her house was 'compromised' in some way, so her neighbour had his garden dug up to sort out her supply. Luckily he gave her permission, but he didnt have to.

Would we get an EV? Yes, if distance improves on one charge; yes, if battery efficiency improves in very cold weather, but, most importantly, yes if costs fall rapidly. 

HMG could offer big subsidies, but that would be a massive cost to the taxpayer. Should non-drivers be expected to subsidise?

Well, I'm a non-driver, Si. And I'd be happy to subsidise EVs.

[markyo]

29 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

Well then, the infrastructure will have to be provided, won't it? In the meantime (at least as far as inner cities are concerned) it's the elimination of ozone and airborne particulates that should be the main concern. 

Sorry you don't understand, its the laws of physics, the size of the cable in thickness that would have to be laid from ever upgraded substation(which none are) down every residential street to feed every house that has a drive/ off street parking some having more than one ev would be enormous. These cars draw a missive current when plugged in, plugged in all at the same time don't forget. I agree the climate effects need dealing with but all Ev via batteries externally charged is never going to work. Its that obvious its unbelievable that folk still don't get it. Just ask any electrician. It would be like building Hs2 down every housing street in the country!

Prime example is go to a motorway service station, a bank of ten chargers, all high speed. More the 5 plugged in at the same time the charge rate has dropped by 30 percent, 6 th person comes along, charger won't charge at all for ten mins until the grid can stabilise enough to supply, then the rate drops again. And thats just on one purpose built ten unit station.

Edited March 26, 2023 by markyo

[skifreak]

33 minutes ago, markyo said:

That is just plain wrong, sorry this what i keep referring to as the EV elitism that is spreading it is mindboggling attitude to EV's are the only option. Yes we need them but a blanket all fits all attitude is ridiculous, they are part of a overall solution.  As for the benefit with existing top end EV's tech the cut off point of a difference as it stands is approx 60000 miles use before the EV becomes more environmentally friendly. As these cars are used for short journeys in the main that will not change rapidly until the tech does.

Not one car suits every task, we need a more realistic approach. As i said previous can you imagine if on returning home every night from work in their Ev's even 25% put them on to charge at home( if they can) the impact that would have on the grid? It is not going to work. The cost of Hydrogen production is dropping massively by the way, you may get a big surprise soon.

The point about hydrogen ICE cars is not wrong. It is an absurd route to go down for the overwhelming majority of road vehicles, hydrogen ICE or gas turbines will only have a very niche role - possibly hydrogen gas turbines on non electrified train lines potentially. 

An internal combustion engine running on hydrogen is less efficient than on conventional petrol, if you can get around 20 to 25% efficiency you are doing good. Fuel cells offer better efficiency, but require even more expensive and relatively rare resources than straight EVs. If you had a tidal power farm feeding an electrolysis plant to generate the hydrogen, the turbine to rubber wheel efficiency of a fuel cell hydrogen car is going to be less than 30%. For an internal combustion engine burning hydrogen the figure is going to be around half that, somewhere in the 10 to 15% efficiency from turbine to rubber wheel. 

Hydrogen will certainly have a role as an energy storage medium and will have some transport uses for sure, but it certainly is not the big solution it is sometimes made out to be. Straight EV's are also far better in an urban environment for air quality, burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is still going to produce oxides of nitrogen.

[Methuselah]

2 minutes ago, markyo said:

Sorry you don't understand, its the laws of physics, the size of the cable in thickness that would have to be laid from ever upgraded substation(which none are) down every residential street to feed every house that has a drive/ off street parking some having more than one ev would be enormous. These cars draw a missive current when plugged in, plugged in all at the same time don't forget. I agree the climate effects need dealing with but all Ev via batteries externally charged is never going to work. Its that obvious its unbelievable that folk still don't get it. Just ask any electrician. It would be like building Hs2 down every housing street in the country!

I really wouldn't try and teach me the 'laws of physics', if I were you. You are basing everything on the limitations of yesterday's technology...

[markyo]

5 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

I really wouldn't try and teach me the 'laws of physics', if I were you. You are basing everything on the limitations of yesterday's technology...

Not teaching you anything, you will know it already. Do the sums. Its simple. The cable in the middle of your road feeding your house is the current technology.

7 minutes ago, skifreak said:

but it certainly is not the big solution it is sometimes made out to be.

I never said it was!!! Its part of a overall package of transport.

Edited March 26, 2023 by markyo

[Methuselah]

But, whether we like it or not, oil and gas will soon run out. So, what will we be left with? My guess is renewables of one sort or another... Ergo, EVs will, sooner or later, be the only method of affordable travel. I guess that internal combustion will go the same way as coal-fired steam locomotion -- something for those steeped in nostalgia. 

[keithlucky]

On 23/03/2023 at 17:31, Kiwi said:

How does that work for the 20% of UK population living in rural areas? Public transport is non existent.

And the 1 million people living in terrace houses  you cannot run cable across footpaths,

[Methuselah]

3 minutes ago, keithlucky said:

And the 1 million people living in terrace houses  you cannot run cable across footpaths,

No, but you can do what the electrics companies have been doing for years: run them under footpaths. 

[keithlucky]

2 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

No, but you can do what the electrics companies have been doing for years: run them under footpaths. 

Yes just think it took 5years to lay Internet cables under footpaths Its totally not practical, It will remain a upper class status symbol .