The Electric Car - saving the climate or just polluting in other ways?

[Gray-Wolf]

57 minutes ago, ANYWEATHER said:

The goal posts will be moved again nearer the time ,just like the rest of the global warming stuff....!

Correct (IMHO?)

Since the first IPCC report how many of the 'Pledges' have been kept?

Thatcher/Reagan ushered in this 'new age' & their opening the door to 'Unfettered Neolib Capitalism' has lead to their absolute control of Global agendas....none of which include saving our World....

[The PIT]

Can understand the Cars being pushed back as the infrastructure/recycling still won't be in place by then. 

If the government what people to install heat pumps they'll need give out more that £7000 as that still won't cover the cost of replacing you entire system.

They'll should also push electric combo's as they should be a drop in replacement bar the need for an electrician.

Heat pumps do work below 0C and some work down -15C.

[Mixer 85]

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs | Car insurance | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

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Drivers who ditched petrol and diesel to help save the planet face huge price rises in premiums

Given that many end up on the scrap heap after minor collisions this isn’t surprising. 

[BlueSkies_do_I_see]

I bought a 2nd hand Nissan Leaf 4 years ago  Some of the things I have liked about it:.

It's way cheaper to run than an ICE. Been stung many times with big bills fixing my petrol car, but the EV has only cost me some new tyres and a window wiper blade so far.

I'm not sweating on the cost of petrol creeping up again every time I go to fill up. I am on a overnight 9p Octopus Go tariff and it is very cheap per mile of driving compared to driving my petrol.

The car is super speedy in acceleration. It feels like driving a giant go-kart. It's  so much fun to drive a compact EV. If you haven't already, you will at some point in the future no doubt, and you'll see what I mean. This performance doesn't diminish as the car ages, unlike an older ICE car does.

It is great is to be able to sit in a car park on a super hot day with the A/C running full blast, windows up and stay cool. You don't have a running engine polluting everyone's lungs in the car park.

It's been great not having to pay road tax, but obviously that honeymoon ends in 2025. I understand it needs to come in as more EVs enter the system

At some point in the future a government will enforce new builds have solar panels. This government sadly haven't, but hoping a future one will. That will instantly make recharging cheaper still.

Hopefully prices will come down and better batteries will develop.

I accept the arguments about the mineral extraction and the fact car tyres still create pollution as they wear on the road and that the initial costs of purchasing are higher. 

I can't wait for the day you can buy a new EV with a 400 mile range for less than £20k. I believe that day will one day arrive.

I don't buy new cars, but I will be keen to pick up a 3 year old one when the day happens. 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by BlueSkies_do_I_see

[alexisj9]

On 21/09/2023 at 14:20, Methuselah said:

I couldn't help laughing last night when I heard a Tory MP blithely claim that the UK has already reduced its GHG emissions by 300%...  It's a miracle! 

So now it's minus whatever it was times 2 pmsl 

[WYorksWeather]

Full disclosure - I'm starting from a point of view of agreement with the IPCC and the scientific mainstream on climate change. If you don't agree that human emissions cause global temperatures to rise, then my argument won't follow.

There's a balance to be struck here I think on the EV issue. It is unequivocally true that EVs have lower CO2 emissions both per mile and over their lifecycle than petrol and diesel cars on a like-for-like basis (e.g. not comparing the largest and most powerful EVs to a small petrol car). However, it is also true that they're not amongst the best methods of travel environmentally speaking. For middle to long distance travel, rail is usually the winner.

[BlueSkies_do_I_see]

3 minutes ago, WYorksWeather said:

Full disclosure - I'm starting from a point of view of agreement with the IPCC and the scientific mainstream on climate change. If you don't agree that human emissions cause global temperatures to rise, then my argument won't follow.

There's a balance to be struck here I think on the EV issue. It is unequivocally true that EVs have lower CO2 emissions both per mile and over their lifecycle than petrol and diesel cars on a like-for-like basis (e.g. not comparing the largest and most powerful EVs to a small petrol car). However, it is also true that they're not amongst the best methods of travel environmentally speaking. For middle to long distance travel, rail is usually the winner.

Completely agree. I can't deny a love of driving. I've driven all the way round Australia in my youth, but as I get older I plan to explore more by train, especially Eurostar. That's one of the lowest emission ways to get long distances quickly.

Edited October 4, 2023 by BlueSkies_do_I_see

[WYorksWeather]

10 minutes ago, BlueSkies_do_I_see said:

Completely agree. I can't deny a love of driving. I've driven all the way round Australia in my youth, but as I get older I plan to explore more by train, especially Eurostar. That's one of the lowest emission ways to get long distances quickly.

Yep. The biggest unsolved challenges in transport (where it's a technical issue, rather than an implementation issue) are probably in ultra-long distance travel. There, you're probably looking at some combination of aviation and shipping with sustainable fuels (if this ever becomes feasible), efficiency improvements, demand reduction, and offsets for the remainder. I think we'll get 80-90% of the way to net zero on most forms of transport by 2050, but heavy industry and ultra-long distance are very tricky.

[The PIT]

Well moving to EV's may be end being stalled forgive the pun due to excessive insurance prices. Not surprising though as once one of those goes up they can burn a whole house down and anything around them let alone burn someone to crisp pretty quickly.

This will also feed back to prices in shops where fleet companies have to pass the cost onto customers.

My car insurance for a puma st has gone up over 100% until I shopped round.

Edited October 5, 2023 by The PIT

[Scuba steve]

At my age and the fact it’s been pushed back until 2035 it’s highly unlikely I’ll ever buy an EV ,I tend to buy new every 3 years so I’ll be in touch with my dealer with good time for 2 new cars for me and my wife sometime around 2034 

[lassie23]

18 minutes ago, Scuba steve said:

At my age and the fact it’s been pushed back until 2035 it’s highly unlikely I’ll ever buy an EV ,I tend to buy new every 3 years so I’ll be in touch with my dealer with good time for 2 new cars for me and my wife sometime around 2034 

I'm waiting until cordless ones hit the market.

[cheeky_monkey]

i wont be buying an EV anytime soon at least the next 15 years..they are totally impracticable for my location..i still believe Hydrogen is the way to go i would switch tomorrow if i could...im sticking with my petrol car thanks very much 

[Sky Full]

Not sure if this link is open to read but this is another report listing some of the reasons EVs are still in their development stage and should not be made mandatory for a long while yet  (in my opinion!)…..

The great electric car experiment has taken a dangerous turn

WWW.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK

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A 'terrifying' malfunction has added to concerns that the failures and risks of EVs are being ignored or casually explained away

It seems completely impractical to set any dates for the forced demise of ICEs until the charging infrastructure for EVs is fully developed and tested nationally and is capable of serving at least a future 10 years increased growth in the number of EVs on the road.  Among other things this means solving the problems of charging EVs if you live in one of the hundreds of thousands of terraced houses and flats in narrow streets often with parking only available on one side of the road, if at all.   Are all public car parks where people have to keep their car overnight (especially blocks of flats and housing estates) going to be provided with electric charging points at every bay and charged at rates which are equivalent to domestic electricity prices at home?  Even if they are installed, are all these public charging points going to be free from vandalism, fraud and 100% reliable?  Otherwise, the many hundreds of thousands of people who cannot park their car off road at night will be at an immediate disadvantage and they will be virtually forced out of private car ownership altogether once ICEs are no longer available to buy.

[Scuba steve]

21 minutes ago, Sky Full said:

Not sure if this link is open to read but this is another report listing some of the reasons EVs are still in their development stage and should not be made mandatory for a long while yet  (in my opinion!)…..

The great electric car experiment has taken a dangerous turn

WWW.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK

---

A 'terrifying' malfunction has added to concerns that the failures and risks of EVs are being ignored or casually explained away

It seems completely impractical to set any dates for the forced demise of ICEs until the charging infrastructure for EVs is fully developed and tested nationally and is capable of serving at least a future 10 years increased growth in the number of EVs on the road.  Among other things this means solving the problems of charging EVs if you live in one of the hundreds of thousands of terraced houses and flats in narrow streets often with parking only available on one side of the road, if at all.   Are all public car parks where people have to keep their car overnight (especially blocks of flats and housing estates) going to be provided with electric charging points at every bay and charged at rates which are equivalent to domestic electricity prices at home?  Even if they are installed, are all these public charging points going to be free from vandalism, fraud and 100% reliable?  Otherwise, the many hundreds of thousands of people who cannot park their car off road at night will be at an immediate disadvantage and they will be virtually forced out of private car ownership altogether once ICEs are no longer available to buy.

Isn’t that the plan ? Tbh it’s all about control and I’m playing no part in this sham 

[jonboy]

2 hours ago, Sky Full said:

Not sure if this link is open to read but this is another report listing some of the reasons EVs are still in their development stage and should not be made mandatory for a long while yet  (in my opinion!)…..

The great electric car experiment has taken a dangerous turn

WWW.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK

---

A 'terrifying' malfunction has added to concerns that the failures and risks of EVs are being ignored or casually explained away

It seems completely impractical to set any dates for the forced demise of ICEs until the charging infrastructure for EVs is fully developed and tested nationally and is capable of serving at least a future 10 years increased growth in the number of EVs on the road.  Among other things this means solving the problems of charging EVs if you live in one of the hundreds of thousands of terraced houses and flats in narrow streets often with parking only available on one side of the road, if at all.   Are all public car parks where people have to keep their car overnight (especially blocks of flats and housing estates) going to be provided with electric charging points at every bay and charged at rates which are equivalent to domestic electricity prices at home?  Even if they are installed, are all these public charging points going to be free from vandalism, fraud and 100% reliable?  Otherwise, the many hundreds of thousands of people who cannot park their car off road at night will be at an immediate disadvantage and they will be virtually forced out of private car ownership altogether once ICEs are no longer available to buy.

Add into the mix the increased danger from electrical car fires that are very intense which means vastly increased fire protection for all underground car parks and arguably car parks in general that have charging points.

[Scuba steve]

2 minutes ago, jonboy said:

Add into the mix the increased danger from electrical car fires that are very intense which means vastly increased fire protection for all underground car parks and arguably car parks in general that have charging points.

They say there’s no more of a risk from fires with them than ICE cars though as they age ,suffer damage and diy mechanics messing with them I’m sure this will become a major issue 

[jonboy]

18 minutes ago, Scuba steve said:

They say there’s no more of a risk from fires with them than ICE cars though as they age ,suffer damage and diy mechanics messing with them I’m sure this will become a major issue 

It isn't the increased risk as such its the increased intensity. When an electric car burns firstly its very difficult to control and put out but more importantly the heat generated is significantly greater than either diesel or petrol vehicles. in context a diesel /petrol burns at roughly 1500F whereas a EV burns at 5000F 3 times the intensity. In 2017 a fire in an old range rover destroyed a multi-storey car park with the loss of some 1300 vehicles imagine what an EV fire will do.

[Methuselah]

It comes as no surprise that organs like the Daily Telegraph are spreading doomsday stories about EVs and such -- that's what they do. But, nonetheless, one thing disappoints me: ICEs explode better in action movies! 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Methuselah

[Sky Full]

2 hours ago, Scuba steve said:

Isn’t that the plan ? Tbh it’s all about control and I’m playing no part in this sham 

Yes indeed.  I think the age of motoring is coming to an end but nobody in government wants to admit it.  There is simply no way that everyone who wants one will be able to continue having a family car under present plans and the ability to travel anywhere at any time will no longer be an option.  Maybe shared / rented autonomous self-driving cars will be the norm in 50 years and everyone will look back at the old way of driving and laugh….!

[marky810]

Just now, Sky Full said:

Yes indeed.  I think the age of motoring is coming to an end but nobody in government wants to admit it.  There is simply no way that everyone who wants one will be able to continue having a family car under present plans and the ability to travel anywhere at any time will no longer be an option.  Maybe shared / rented autonomous self-driving cars will be the norm in 50 years and everyone will look back at the old way of driving and laugh….!

You mean 'you will own nothing and be happy'. 

[jonboy]

2 minutes ago, Sky Full said:

Yes indeed.  I think the age of motoring is coming to an end but nobody in government wants to admit it.  There is simply no way that everyone who wants one will be able to continue having a family car under present plans and the ability to travel anywhere at any time will no longer be an option.  Maybe shared / rented autonomous self-driving cars will be the norm in 50 years and everyone will look back at the old way of driving and laugh….!

In 50 years we might have in the planning stage a high speed national railway network!!!

[Scuba steve]

5 minutes ago, Sky Full said:

Yes indeed.  I think the age of motoring is coming to an end but nobody in government wants to admit it.  There is simply no way that everyone who wants one will be able to continue having a family car under present plans and the ability to travel anywhere at any time will no longer be an option.  Maybe shared / rented autonomous self-driving cars will be the norm in 50 years and everyone will look back at the old way of driving and laugh….!

Fortunately I’ll be worm  food by then 

[WYorksWeather]

Just now, Methuselah said:

It comes as no surprise that organs like the Daily Telegraph are spreading doomsday stories about EVs and such --that's what they do. But, nonetheless, one thing disappoints me: ICEs explode better in action movies! 

Right, I'm going to go through the article step by step. As usual there's a whole litany of misleading information in it, mixed in with a couple of genuine issues.

Firstly, the man whose car went out of control - seems like this is more of an electronic issue. It's more to do with the car's self-driving capabilities than the fact that it is electric - an ICE car with self-driving could suffer the same fault. The powertrain doesn't really matter here.

Pedestrian safety is an issue - but since 2021 electric cars are fitted with devices that make sound at low speed, so hopefully this issue will be fixed.

On the risk of fire, here's a study from Sweden (via Google Translate):

Quote

The fires in electric cars have been around 20 per year in the last three years, although the number of electric cars has almost doubled to nearly 611,000, while cars powered by other fuels are almost 4.4 million cars. During the same period, roughly 3,400 cars have caught fire, regardless of fuel (including arson).

Risk of fire for electric cars is something like 20 times lower when you adjust for the number of cars on the road.

On car parks - heavier cars are a problem generally. I found data showing the average car weight in Europe has risen from 1,328kg in 2001 to 1,600kg in 2021. The solution is probably that once there are more EVs, instead of taxing based on tailpipe emissions, we'll just tax by weight instead, so your Nissan Leaf owner will pay a lot less than a Hummer EV owner.

On queuing at charging points - this is fundamentally an infrastructure problem, and a waiting problem. Many of the older electric cars had relatively low ranges and poor charging rates - a 2011 Nissan Leaf had a range when new of something like 80-100 miles, so probably 50-60 miles of real-world range in poor circumstances, and 50kW charging as a maximum. That'd be a right pain on a long trip. Newer cars though are closer to 200-300 miles of range, and can nearly all charge at 100kW or faster. We need those cars to filter down to the cheaper end of the market. Right now a used EV isn't an option for a lot of people as you can't get anything decent in the £5k range, whereas there are plenty of decent ICE cars.

The article also mentions power cuts in rural areas - well most people don't realise this, but most petrol stations use electricity to operate the pumps, so in a power cut, you're not getting any fuel. Then it becomes around how much fuel you have left - let's assume 50% for both ICE and electric. Again, you've got 100 miles or more of useful range. And for emergency workers, it's likely that any vehicles they use would have some sort of backup power source whether it's old school like generators, or newer methods like solar with battery storage.

It also talks about handing power to China. Whilst that is a concern, I notice that the people who worry most about that don't seem to bother too much about doing deals with the head-chopping Saudi regime and the OPEC countries. I'm not convinced one is worse than the other.

In short, a few of the issues with EVs I'm prepared to engage with - risks around China, pedestrian safety, charging, and car weight. But a lot of the other issues the article mentions are misleading and bordering on outright misinformation.

My personal view on EVs at the moment is this:

If you have plenty of money (buying new or nearly new), and don't regularly drive more than 150 miles per day, get an EV.

If you have a decent budget for a car (say £5k-10k) and don't regularly drive more than 100 miles per day, still get an EV.

If you have less than £5k to spend, probably don't get an EV.

And if you can't charge at home, also check the cost and spacing of chargers in your local area - if there's not many or they're expensive, don't get an EV.

[Scuba steve]

25 minutes ago, WYorksWeather said:

Right, I'm going to go through the article step by step. As usual there's a whole litany of misleading information in it, mixed in with a couple of genuine issues.

Firstly, the man whose car went out of control - seems like this is more of an electronic issue. It's more to do with the car's self-driving capabilities than the fact that it is electric - an ICE car with self-driving could suffer the same fault. The powertrain doesn't really matter here.

Pedestrian safety is an issue - but since 2021 electric cars are fitted with devices that make sound at low speed, so hopefully this issue will be fixed.

On the risk of fire, here's a study from Sweden (via Google Translate):

Risk of fire for electric cars is something like 20 times lower when you adjust for the number of cars on the road.

On car parks - heavier cars are a problem generally. I found data showing the average car weight in Europe has risen from 1,328kg in 2001 to 1,600kg in 2021. The solution is probably that once there are more EVs, instead of taxing based on tailpipe emissions, we'll just tax by weight instead, so your Nissan Leaf owner will pay a lot less than a Hummer EV owner.

On queuing at charging points - this is fundamentally an infrastructure problem, and a waiting problem. Many of the older electric cars had relatively low ranges and poor charging rates - a 2011 Nissan Leaf had a range when new of something like 80-100 miles, so probably 50-60 miles of real-world range in poor circumstances, and 50kW charging as a maximum. That'd be a right pain on a long trip. Newer cars though are closer to 200-300 miles of range, and can nearly all charge at 100kW or faster. We need those cars to filter down to the cheaper end of the market. Right now a used EV isn't an option for a lot of people as you can't get anything decent in the £5k range, whereas there are plenty of decent ICE cars.

The article also mentions power cuts in rural areas - well most people don't realise this, but most petrol stations use electricity to operate the pumps, so in a power cut, you're not getting any fuel. Then it becomes around how much fuel you have left - let's assume 50% for both ICE and electric. Again, you've got 100 miles or more of useful range. And for emergency workers, it's likely that any vehicles they use would have some sort of backup power source whether it's old school like generators, or newer methods like solar with battery storage.

It also talks about handing power to China. Whilst that is a concern, I notice that the people who worry most about that don't seem to bother too much about doing deals with the head-chopping Saudi regime and the OPEC countries. I'm not convinced one is worse than the other.

In short, a few of the issues with EVs I'm prepared to engage with - risks around China, pedestrian safety, charging, and car weight. But a lot of the other issues the article mentions are misleading and bordering on outright misinformation.

My personal view on EVs at the moment is this:

If you have plenty of money (buying new or nearly new), and don't regularly drive more than 150 miles per day, get an EV.

If you have a decent budget for a car (say £5k-10k) and don't regularly drive more than 100 miles per day, still get an EV.

If you have less than £5k to spend, probably don't get an EV.

And if you can't charge at home, also check the cost and spacing of chargers in your local area - if there's not many or they're expensive, don't get an EV.

That risk of fire will no doubt rise when they allow cheap and nasty Chinese EVs into the country 

[Midlands Ice Age]

36 minutes ago, WYorksWeather said:

Right, I'm going to go through the article step by step. As usual there's a whole litany of misleading information in it, mixed in with a couple of genuine issues.

Firstly, the man whose car went out of control - seems like this is more of an electronic issue. It's more to do with the car's self-driving capabilities than the fact that it is electric - an ICE car with self-driving could suffer the same fault. The powertrain doesn't really matter here.

Pedestrian safety is an issue - but since 2021 electric cars are fitted with devices that make sound at low speed, so hopefully this issue will be fixed.

On the risk of fire, here's a study from Sweden (via Google Translate):

Risk of fire for electric cars is something like 20 times lower when you adjust for the number of cars on the road.

On car parks - heavier cars are a problem generally. I found data showing the average car weight in Europe has risen from 1,328kg in 2001 to 1,600kg in 2021. The solution is probably that once there are more EVs, instead of taxing based on tailpipe emissions, we'll just tax by weight instead, so your Nissan Leaf owner will pay a lot less than a Hummer EV owner.

On queuing at charging points - this is fundamentally an infrastructure problem, and a waiting problem. Many of the older electric cars had relatively low ranges and poor charging rates - a 2011 Nissan Leaf had a range when new of something like 80-100 miles, so probably 50-60 miles of real-world range in poor circumstances, and 50kW charging as a maximum. That'd be a right pain on a long trip. Newer cars though are closer to 200-300 miles of range, and can nearly all charge at 100kW or faster. We need those cars to filter down to the cheaper end of the market. Right now a used EV isn't an option for a lot of people as you can't get anything decent in the £5k range, whereas there are plenty of decent ICE cars.

The article also mentions power cuts in rural areas - well most people don't realise this, but most petrol stations use electricity to operate the pumps, so in a power cut, you're not getting any fuel. Then it becomes around how much fuel you have left - let's assume 50% for both ICE and electric. Again, you've got 100 miles or more of useful range. And for emergency workers, it's likely that any vehicles they use would have some sort of backup power source whether it's old school like generators, or newer methods like solar with battery storage.

It also talks about handing power to China. Whilst that is a concern, I notice that the people who worry most about that don't seem to bother too much about doing deals with the head-chopping Saudi regime and the OPEC countries. I'm not convinced one is worse than the other.

In short, a few of the issues with EVs I'm prepared to engage with - risks around China, pedestrian safety, charging, and car weight. But a lot of the other issues the article mentions are misleading and bordering on outright misinformation.

My personal view on EVs at the moment is this:

If you have plenty of money (buying new or nearly new), and don't regularly drive more than 150 miles per day, get an EV.

If you have a decent budget for a car (say £5k-10k) and don't regularly drive more than 100 miles per day, still get an EV.

If you have less than £5k to spend, probably don't get an EV.

And if you can't charge at home, also check the cost and spacing of chargers in your local area - if there's not many or they're expensive, don't get an EV.

Wow..

Considering the above post is  supposed to be painting a rosy  'pink' picture of the situation, it has convinced me even more that an EV is not an option for a good while yet.

Also points skimmed over or ignored as not an argument..

1) in the more rural areas (where a lot of people will need to recharge) on medium journeys,   there is still the extra power consumption being used, that will mean that the 'power' network will need to be improved.  At the moment there is a major new EV power garage offline due to the inadequacy of the power supply. I suspect there may be others. 

2) Around 50% of the cars owned today do not have access to street or outside chargers, and yet they will need them, if converted to EV's.

3) ICE  cars tend not to burst into flames when being refuelled or stationary. Recent cases highlighted in the news media appear to be  in stationary vehicles. They have proved difficult to extinguish. There have been 2 major incidents recently, ( one with the car container ship, the other with the car park which burnt down that destroyed tens of hundreds of cars). I do not recall seeing any reports of similar incidents caused by ICE cars.

4) I have just bought a new petrol car and the insurance premiums have gone up between 50 and 100% this year. I enquired about similar insurance for hybrid and also for pure electric vehicles of a similar size, and they were between 250 and 1000% higher. This assumes that I can afford to pay 100% more in the first place. The insurance companies are not mugs. They are beginning to understand the true costs of these vehicles. 

Someone above was correct who stated that in future we must be expecting to  change our lifestyles. Car journeys will become a vastly reduced possibility for the general population..

I had better stop as I am beginning to worry about what my grandchildren will have as a lifestyle in 50 years time!. 

MIA